Talk:Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period
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[edit]ok heres the thing we really need smart ppl answering hard questions ok thank u(UTC)
Map please!
[edit]let's get a map here showing the boundaries of the various kingdoms. I have no idea where these places were! brain 19:12, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
- Alright! I'll see what i can do. Pojanji 00:07, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
"Too Tedious"
[edit]What on earth is "too tedious" supposed to mean—"It's too much trouble for me to do"? How about "Too numerous to be listed" or something? "Too tedious" just sounds ridiculous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.112.66.23 (talk) 00:50, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
"Later Han," or "Later Zhou?"
[edit]I don't know anything about the subject, but this *looks* like an error:
"...However, Liu Chong, a member of the Later Han imperial family, established a rival Northern Han regime in Taiyuan, and requested Khitan aid to defeat Later Han."
This comes right after a description of the fall of Later Han, and the establishment of Later Zhou. Does it make sense that a Later Han family member would request the assistance of a foreign power to contend against his already deposed family dynasty?zadignose (talk) 15:46, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
File:Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms 907-979.jpg Deleted
[edit]
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Page rework
[edit]NickDupree brought to my attention how... err... needy this page is.
Okay, so these are the things that I see as issues.
- Right now this is a switchboard paragraph. It's got a paragraph on each of the titular dynasties/kingdoms, with links out. The focus of this page really should be the era itself. In the conversation that led to this, Nick mentioned "Chinese kingdoms competing against each other, forcing technological leaps in order to get an edge". I'd also like to see some sections on the economic and social realities of the period.
- "List of Sovereigns" section needs to go. That stuff needs to into the articles on the kingdoms and dynasties, as it adds nothing to this article. I'm torn, leading delete, on the "Other regimes" subsection.
- I see lots of art, but no context.
Thoughts? Sven Manguard Wha? 22:03, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
Copy of removed material: List of sovereigns
[edit](headers changed to ";" lines)
Content in collapse box.
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Please don't add this back to the central article, break the list down by dynasty/kingdom and place each piece in the article for that dynasty/kingdom. Sven Manguard Wha? 21:08, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
References
[edit]- ^ Chinaknowlegde.de, ChinaKnowledge online encyclopedia, ed. Ulrich Theobald (Tian Yuli 田宇利, styled Shudouting 數豆亭), Department of Chinese and Korean Studies, University of Tübingen, heading Later Han.
Move discussion in progress
[edit]There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at Talk:Warring States Period - Requested move and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 23:00, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
Getting better
[edit]I think this article is finally living up to its B rating. To get it to GA, can we find more citations? Bearian (talk) 16:21, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
Requested move 13 June 2015
[edit]- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: split. Apologies for this is a rather messy close, but the consensus seems to be that we should follow Britannica and split this topic into two separate articles – Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms (I've decided not to tack on "period" because the sources generally don't seem to, but if whoever does the work wants to then that should be OK). The question is then what do we do with Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms/Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period? Just redirect them to one of the two resultant articles and deal with it by hatnotes, or have it as a kind of broad-concept article than summarises both? Personally I don't know and I don't think there's a consensus here, so again I'll leave that to either whoever does the work or if you guys want to discuss it further on this talk page. Please let me know if you need me to clarify anything or if you need me to use the admin tools for anything once the splitting and so on has been done. Jenks24 (talk) 18:42, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period → Five Dynasties period – Per 1) Google Ngram Diagram and 2) WP:Concise. There's another reason for the move. The term "Ten Kingdoms", though frequently encountered, is controversial and misleading because it seriously misrepresents the reality of the period:
- The word "kingdom" is controversial. Only 3 of these so-called "Ten Kingdoms" are real "kingdoms", namely Chu (Ten Kingdoms), Wuyue and Jingnan. The others are all in reality empires, on the same political level as the "Five Dynasties" (for the most part). The difference between a "kingdom" and an "empire" is largely rhetorical, as some of these "kings" lived just like "emperors", but the political hierarchy of an imperial Chinese tributary system which dictates that a kingdom is inferior to an empire, cannot be ignored. Many historians nowadays use the alternative term of "Five Dynasties and Ten States", as the English word "state" doesn't distinguish between "empire" and "kingdom". English books on this period are few, but just look at two of these titles: Edward H. Schafer's The Empire of Min (about Min (Ten Kingdoms)) and Johannes Kurz's China's Southern Tang Dynasty, 937-976 (about Southern Tang). Clearly historians who have studied the period know these "Ten Kingdoms" shouldn't be called "Kingdoms", but rather "empires" or "dynasties".
- The number "10" is also controversial. Quoting Hongjie Wang in his Power and Politics in Tenth-Century China, the term "Ten Kingdoms" also "fails to acknowledge other polities that were neither politically inferior to nor militarily weaker than most of the other regional regimes", such as Jin (Later Tang precursor), Qi (Five Dynasties), Yan (Five Dynasties) etc. Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 15:26, 22 June 2015 (UTC) Timmyshin (talk) 01:41, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
- Strong Support per nom, per WP:COMMONNAME, WP:CONCISE, and WP:PRECISE. There were not Ten Kingdoms in this period. It appears the current title "Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period" does not appear in books as per Google Ngram but "Five Dynasties period" appears in books commonly. The period is traditionally taken to have lasted from 907 to 960 CE, which is also the period that Five Dynasties existed in. Khestwol (talk) 02:51, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose it is the distinctive, historical and a not uncommon formulation. It's more distinctive than just Five Dynasties. The term "Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms" is frequently used in books [1] and it is used to refer to this period. -- 70.51.202.183 (talk) 06:15, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Comment: "Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period" does not seem to appear in books. Even after removing the word "period", "Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms" is still relatively uncommon as per Google Ngram. Khestwol (talk) 06:19, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Support, per Encyclopedia Britannica. "Five Dynasties" is a North China oriented name for this period, while the name "Ten Kingdoms" takes a southern perspective. The current title represents an awkward attempt to split the difference. This ngram is a little clearer about these issues than the one in the nomination. Furthermore Britannica has a separate Ten Kingdoms article on political events in the South, something I recommended we do. "Ten Kingdoms" is just an expression, like "10,000 years." The discussion of who was a king and who was an emperor is beside the point. H. Humbert (talk) 00:57, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
- Support The title works in Chinese (五代十国, a nice, very traditional 4-character term) but in English it is not used and is awkward to boot. I also suggest we might fork Ten Kingdoms. Ogress smash! 02:28, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose - I would caution against relying on Ngram in this case. The Five Dynasties existed in North China and Ten Kingdoms in the south. If a book's focus is north China, then it's natural to drop the "Ten Kingdoms" part. As long as our article is about the entire China, "Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms" (I don't think "period" is necessary) would be a better title to match the scope. As H. Humbert and Ogress pointed out, splitting the article is an option, per Encyclopedia Britannica. Whether there were exactly ten kingdoms is irrelevant. It's just a customary term that's been widely used for ages, just like the Sixteen Kingdoms, which actually involved more than 20 kingdoms. -Zanhe (talk) 08:15, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Articles created for 5D and 10K
[edit]I have created new articles for the Five Dynasties and for the Ten Kingdoms, per the discussion above. IMO, this article is now a WP:FORK and the lemma should redirect to Five Dynasties. H. Humbert (talk) 02:38, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
- With all due respect, it's ridiculous to split the article in my opinion. Northern Han should undoubtedly be included in the Five Dynasties (northern China) history. Are you going to have an article about "9 kingdoms"? Timmyshin (talk) 17:46, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with Timmyshin; the period cannot really be divided up in that manner - but I also recognize that there had been a discussion (which I was unaware of, otherwise I would have spoken up on). I am, to be honest, in respect for the discussion above, not sure what to say at this point; I think the split is ill-advised, but again, we had a (recent) discussion. (Of course, it's nobody else's fault that because of real life issues, I haven't been able to follow things as closely as I perhaps should.) I would say, though, the split has a real risk of causing states that don't fit into the traditional Five Dynasties/Ten Kingdoms distinction (Yen, Qi, Jin, Yin) to be missed. --Nlu (talk) 18:00, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
- I also did not look at the discussion for some time, and I'm currently shocked that somehow "split" became the consensus. Despite the fact that Britannica has split the articles, this absolutely must not be done here. The dichotomy "Five Dynasties" and "Ten Kingdoms" are Song dynasty inventions to legitimize their claim of mandate of Heaven, and very different from historical reality. (If you want to understand this, read the introduction chapter (fully available online) for this book which spent like 10 pages explaining why the dichotomy is problematic). See also F.W. Mote's Imperial China 900-1800, pp. 8-9 [2] We don't live in the Song dynasty, why should we follow their version of history? Also as mentioned above, Northern Han, one of the "Ten Kingdoms", is in north China so this also doesn't make any geographical sense. Northern Han is in reality a continuation of Later Han (Five Dynasties), and its entire territory was part of formerly Later Han's territory, so how can they be in 2 different articles? Timmyshin (talk) 18:48, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
- pinging User:Jenks24, User:H. Humbert, User:Ogress, User:Zanhe, User:Khestwol. Timmyshin (talk) 18:51, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
- The name "Five Dynasties" implies that these five regimes had the mandate of heaven while the others did not. Which regimes earned the mandate is of course a subjective issue. But this problem exists whether the article is split or not. Your proposal to leave the phrase "Ten Kingdoms" out the titles altogether would shortchange the South to an even greater degree. 01:13, 12 July 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by H. Humbert (talk • contribs)
- First, the requested move took a month to happen, so this information suddenly appearing is a little frustrating. Also, you pinged yourself, Timmyshin. I'll wait to hear from others before commenting further Ogress smash! 19:03, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think there is any new information. I've already made the argument that "kingdom" and "dynasty" are not as distinct as appears in my original proposal. Maybe I didn't explain myself well, partly because English isn't my first language and partly because the period is confusing and difficult to explain. But to give you a comparison, splitting countries into these categories is akin to having List of real countries and List of fake countries articles on Wikipedia — it's entirely arbitrary based on your perspective (in this case, decided by Song dynasty historians like Xue Juzheng, Wang Pu (Later Zhou and Song chancellor) and later Ouyang Xiu, all of whom write the Five Dynasties period history with a need to legitimize their own country.). Timmyshin (talk) 19:15, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
- I understood you, I am merely waiting for other editors to comment. Ogress smash! 19:27, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with what Timmyshin and Nlu said -- the article cannot be split into two topics. The states that this article cover can't be split into two clear categories, neither chronologically nor geographically. As per Timmyshin's suggestion, the article should have been simply moved to "Five Dynasties period" in one piece. I think the RM above was closed badly. Perhaps we can ask the admin Jenks24 to change their decision and not split the article? Khestwol (talk) 21:25, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
- I understood you, I am merely waiting for other editors to comment. Ogress smash! 19:27, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think there is any new information. I've already made the argument that "kingdom" and "dynasty" are not as distinct as appears in my original proposal. Maybe I didn't explain myself well, partly because English isn't my first language and partly because the period is confusing and difficult to explain. But to give you a comparison, splitting countries into these categories is akin to having List of real countries and List of fake countries articles on Wikipedia — it's entirely arbitrary based on your perspective (in this case, decided by Song dynasty historians like Xue Juzheng, Wang Pu (Later Zhou and Song chancellor) and later Ouyang Xiu, all of whom write the Five Dynasties period history with a need to legitimize their own country.). Timmyshin (talk) 19:15, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
My vote was primarily for Five Dynasties period; I'd be happy to strike my support for a fork. Ogress smash! 21:35, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
- "Five Dynasties" and "Ten Kingdoms" are both terms commonly used when discussing this period. Since they don't mean the same thing, the obvious solution is separate articles. As I understand it, the primary objection is that one of the Ten Kingdoms was in the North. How is this even a problem? It was one of the smaller kingdoms, so it doesn't seriously blur the North vs. South distinction. A lot happened in this period in terms of agriculture, commerce, poetry, and printing. These articles should focus on major trends, not kingdom counting. H. Humbert (talk) 22:35, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
- I understand where you are coming from but why is there even a need to distinguish them in this case? One of my original arguments (perhaps I didn't explain clearly) was that "Five Dynasties" has a clear temporal and spatial relationship: If I were to give them a definition, they are "the 5 states located in Central Plains (China) that succeeded one another between 907 and 960". Very straight-forward. But how would you define "Ten Kingdoms" without naming them? You can't. If I were to give my best definition, they are "the 10 states other than the the 'Five Dynasties', that existed between 907 and 960, that had at least 2 monarchs, and that contained territory that became part of Song dynasty after 979". As you can see the term not only makes little historical sense, but is also completely dependent on the definition of "Five Dynasties". Therefore Five Dynasties period is definitely preferable IMO, which as Nlu mentioned could also include states like Jin (Later Tang precursor) that was every bit as militarily powerful as the so-called "Ten Kingdoms". Timmyshin (talk) 03:15, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
- I think I have created a reasonably good definition for the article's opening: "The Ten Kingdoms was a period in the history of Southern China that followed the fall of the Tang dynasty in 907. It lasted until the rise of the Song dynasty, which was founded in 960." Britannica's definition is, "Ten Kingdoms (907–960), period in Chinese history when southern China was ruled by nine small independent kingdoms, with one more small kingdom in the far north." H. Humbert (talk) 09:41, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
- H. Humbert, I think you should not solely rely on one WP:Tertiary source (Britannica). Khestwol (talk) 10:28, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
- Did you read the guideline you cite? "Reliable tertiary sources can be helpful in providing broad summaries of topics that involve many primary and secondary sources, and may be helpful in evaluating due weight, especially when primary or secondary sources contradict each other." — Preceding unsigned comment added by H. Humbert (talk • contribs) 00:46, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
- H. Humbert, I think you should not solely rely on one WP:Tertiary source (Britannica). Khestwol (talk) 10:28, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
To echo Ogress, it is frustrating to see these concerns come to light only after the discussion has been closed. The first suggestion to split/fork the article came on 16 June. In the more than three weeks between that suggestion and my close, the only other two comments added to the discussion also supported a split/fork. What was I supposed to infer, but that the other commentators in the discussion (and other people with an interest in this topic) were either ambivalent or supportive of this change? Surely if anyone had disagreed they would have spoken up in the three-plus weeks? I will add this was not an easy discussion to close – there's a reason it was sitting in the backlog awaiting closure for weeks.
Looking over the discussion again, I think my assessment of the consensus there was correct. In particular that this is the way Encyclopedia Britannica deals with it was compelling – WP:AT several times recommends following usage in other encyclopedias. I get that some people here think we shouldn't split, but does anyone actually think I read the discussion incorrectly? And if so, what do you want me to actually do?
I should add that I am not absolutely wedded to my decision and am willing to be convinced otherwise despite my initial thoughts here. I've watchlisted this page and will continue to monitor the discussion. Jenks24 (talk) 10:45, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
- Perhaps we have been sidetracked by the word "split." I see three issues to resolve:
- Should the Five Dynasties article cover all of China, or only the North? It is certainly convenient to have a concise term that applies to the entire the country. But this usage shoehorns the South into a North-oriented formula. It anticipates reunification under the Kaifeng regime, which people at the time might not have expected.
- What should happen to the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period lemma? IMO, it should point to Five Dynasties.
- Should the Ten Kingdoms have their own article? Whether the 5D article covers the South or not, a separate 10K article allows for in depth coverage of the region. H. Humbert (talk) 09:40, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
- I think that the current title is fine as it is (as unwieldy as it might be to some) because it avoids many of the other pitfalls. Failing that, Five Dynasties period would be better and I think should cover the entire "China" (whatever that may be reasonably construed to be). (As H. Humbert pointed out, this does have the uneven north-centric problem, but that is why I think the current title is fine as it is to avoid that.) I think that there is no need to have a separate Ten Kingdoms article because it has several problems: 1) whether it is "ten" kingdoms is problematic; 2) the Ten Kingdoms (however enumerated) were not all in the south; and 3) the issue can be better handled by better developing the individual "kingdom"'s article; in many ways, they have more differences than commonalities. --Nlu (talk) 17:01, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
- The split carried out was outside the scope of a move discussion and should never have been carried out. As User:Nlu and User:Timmyshin have noted above, dividing the topics is original research and it's ludicrous to have three articles on the same topic when the original one was in pretty rough shape already. (Even the Chinese Wikipedia doesn't have separate articles.) The current state of affairs is even more deplorable with unsourced duplicate articles at Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms. — AjaxSmack 02:58, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
- As I wrote before, Britannica has separate "Five Dynasty" and "Ten Kingdoms" article, which IMO is what we should do. Regardless of whether the main article is called "Five Dynasties" or "Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period," there can still be a separate Ten Kingdoms article on the South. We have fifty times as many articles as Britannica, so we can certainly have two on this period. Dorothy Perkins' Encyclopedia of China is a better model than Chinese Wiki(?!). She has separate articles on the "Five Dynasties period" and the "Ten Kingdoms period" -- and no "Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period" article. H. Humbert (talk) 08:30, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
- Closing, given consensus not to merge, allowing for WP:SILENCE (over more than 2 years). Klbrain (talk) 23:00, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
- As I wrote before, Britannica has separate "Five Dynasty" and "Ten Kingdoms" article, which IMO is what we should do. Regardless of whether the main article is called "Five Dynasties" or "Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period," there can still be a separate Ten Kingdoms article on the South. We have fifty times as many articles as Britannica, so we can certainly have two on this period. Dorothy Perkins' Encyclopedia of China is a better model than Chinese Wiki(?!). She has separate articles on the "Five Dynasties period" and the "Ten Kingdoms period" -- and no "Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period" article. H. Humbert (talk) 08:30, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
Images
[edit]There are a number of images in this article, all of which are from the period, but are just randomly scattered through the article. There is no reference to them in the main text and they actually have no connection to the text that they are illustrating. So for instance, "Butterfly and Wisteria Flowers, by Xu Xi (886–974)" which was painted in Southern Tang in South China is placed next to Later Han in north China. Images from the Mokau caves in the far northwest are placed in the south China section...
Until and unless the article has a section on 'Art and culture' or some such, these are just misleading window dressing. Furius (talk) 15:30, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Furius: I know it's been more than 2 years, but I've moved the pictures to a gallery section under the "Culture" header. ◢ Ganbaruby! (remember to ping!) 13:22, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
Discrepancy in dates for Southern Tang
[edit]Why does this article say 937–975 for Southern Tang, but the Southern Tang article says 937–976? 173.88.246.138 (talk) 23:58, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
Article structure
[edit]Instead of sections for each of the states, I think it would be better to have a single "History" section, like the article on Chinese Wikipedia does. There are many important events that have affected multiple states, and the article has "period" in the title, so it should be about the period as a whole, not the individual states. Mucube (talk • contribs) 19:11, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
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