Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Festung

Festung

This refers to the entry for Festung. True, but Wikipedia isn't in German. Does it need this qualification? Mandel 05:57, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

• Keep. I don't get the idea behind this VfD. The German WWII festungen were a fenomenon that need their article, especially that one cannot understand the end of WWII without it. So far it's only a stub, but it links to two valid articles on specific festungen and there will be more to come. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 07:29, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

Also, why is this VfD not linked on the actual Wikipedia:Votes for deletion? [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]]

• • You can't blame me for putting this up for deletion. As written it is almost a dictionary entry. In war just every city is declared a fortress, so it's hard to see what is so special about this generic term. Maybe you can explain why one "cannot understand the end of WWII without it". Mandel 08:29, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. This may not be German Wikipedia, but that doesn't mean we can't have German terms if they're important enough. -- Necrothesp 10:06, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. Potential for expansion.--Tomheaton 12:26, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. We're the Wikipedia in English, not the Wikipedia for English topics. --Improv 15:57, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• discuss Rename to "German strongholds against the Russian advance of 1944". I don't think the term Festung is in use in history books written by English native speakers. This should be an entry in German Wikipedia and, at the very most, a redirect in English wikipedia. Mozzerati 19:22, 2004 Oct 12 (UTC)
  • Comment - The word is used in English, and largely in connection with German fortifications in WWII - see [BBC - Guernsey - About Guernsey - Festung Alderney] for an example. Average Earthman 19:42, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • In almost every place I could find, where it is used, it is used as a quote of the German (Hitler said "... Festung XXX") The BBC article uses it as a title, but never in the body where it uses "fortress" instead (suggesting that it is a German name). Looking at the Google search [1] almost all usage is either in German (dispite searching for English only) or is related to a German fortress. Do we have any real book references. I have checked several historians not found Festung in use. BTW, I accept that the topic is valid, just not the name. Mozzerati 21:22, 2004 Oct 12 (UTC)
• Keep, as Average Earthman's comment. Thue | talk 21:04, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Keep or at least redirect to fortress and add a section about the significance of the term festung in relation to WWII. DCEdwards1966 21:29, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

I've done a prototype for how I think this could be changed. User:Mozzerati/German end of WWII strongholds. I suggest moving the article (as I voted above) then putting this as its text and leaving the redirect from Festung. Fortress has too many other uses to concentrate on just this one issue. Comments??? Mozzerati 22:23, 2004 Oct 12 (UTC)

The "prototype" as you put it seems great, thanks. However, I still believe it should be placed under Festung rather than anything else. Although google test shows many German pages with festung, there are also lots of English links related to specific fortresses, like for instance Festung Breslau - 631. Anyway, if the community decides to change the title - I won't oppose. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 07:01, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)

Okay, now I tried putting festung as a disambiguation page with German end of WWII strongholds as the main discussion of the actual strongholds. The term Festung is also mentioned in the introduction to he new article. This leaves the term clearly defined in this context, but also covers other definitions. Any objections? Mozzerati 19:57, 2004 Oct 13 (UTC)

• Rename: I can't see how this could be anything but a dictionary-entry. A Festung is, as the article states, a generic term, i.e. any type of fortress in German (view long article at de:Festung), not limited to one particular historical context. The article needs a new title. //u p p l a n d 00:37, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

My idea was to prepare an article on the WWII usage of the term and add a simple line that Festung is also a generic German name for fortress. I've seen countless articles that cover only one aspect of the word and state that the word can also be used in other situations. What's wrong with that? [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]]

The title would be legitimate, but there are other better, clearer ones IMHO. Following reasons why other titles might be better.

1. this isn't a proper English word. It's not in the dictionaries [2] [3] [4]
2. there is a clear translation (fortress) which is in use in this context and would be better (e.g. Davies / The BBC article) comment: possibly this means my title should be renamed to German end of WWII fortresses, though I think strongholds is more general and suggests a more interesting article
3. In almost all cases it is used as a proper noun (Festung Kohlberg e.g.) in which case, the entire proper anme should be used together.
4. Wikipedia article names are meant to be in English except where a foreign term is more common. In Google Second world war festung [5] returns only 1,600 articles where second world war fortress [6] returns 200,000 articles (remember I have set google to return only English language pages).

Having said that, I think that a redirect/disambiguation should be left in place. Festung is a term some people might wonder about and which leads to interesting articles. Mozzerati 21:23, 2004 Oct 14 (UTC)