Talk:Order of precedence in England and Wales
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Sisters of a sovereign when not accompanied by her husband
[edit]I notice that a (currently vacent) spot exists for sisters and sisters-in-law of a sovereign when accompanying their husbands. However, there is no spot for these women on the list of female members of the royal family when not accompanying their husbands. It's not an urgent gap that needs filling as Princess Margaret has passed and this won't come into question until Charles becomes king and Anne and Sophie fit this description, but worth looking at in advance. Do they go in the same spot, after the sovereign's granddaughters? Based on the reasoning, sisters would go above any in-law daughters or granddaughters because they are born royal, while sister-in-law would probably go after the daughters-in-law (and maybe granddaughters-in-law?) Can anyone shed some light on this? Piratesswoop (talk) 18:47, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
- I see that Debretts (https://debretts.com/royal-family/tables-of-precedence/#TABLE_OF_PRECEDENCE_AMONGST_LADIES_IN_ENGLAND_WALES) puts sisters of the sovereign ahead of daughters and granddaughters, whereas the list on this page now puts sisters of the sovereign behind daughters and granddaughters. Note that the Debretts list is assuming the ladies are NOT accompanied by their husbands -- Sophie would presumably come ahead of Anne if accompanied by Edward -- but the relative placement of the sovereign's *siblings* and the sovereign's *descendants* seems to be a discrepancy. Does anyone know why this is, and which we should follow? mooncow 15:49, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
Wives of royal grandsons of former Sovereigns who are not Dukes
[edit]A revision on 17 July 2022 appears to have removed the Countess of Snowdon. Should she appear in the above category between the Duchess of Kent and Princess Michael of Kent, in the same way that her husband appears between the Duke of Kent and Prince Michael of Kent? The separation between herself and her husband presumably does not affect her precedence. She was removed from the template on 9th August 2020, so if she is restored to the Order of Precedence she should presumably also be restored to the template. Her own article has a succession box giving her precedence between Zara Tindall and Lady Sarah Chatto. Thoughts? Alekksandr (talk) 17:42, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
- Both George, Earl of Harewood and his wife Patricia, Countess of Harewood, grandson of a former sovereign who was not a duke and his wife, were denied place in the list here on this article while they were alive. I remember this because I argued for their inclusion. So, why is the Earl of Snowdon here included? Kowalmistrz (talk) 08:19, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
Secretaries of State
[edit]Jeremy Hunt is not at present a Secretary of State, therefore his highest is rank Privy Counsellor, unlike Oliver Dowden who is a Secretary of State in the Cabinet Office @DrKay Shacharrz (talk) 09:09, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
Titles of the Susex's
[edit]Shouldn't the Duke and Duchess of Sussex still be aloud to have there HRH even though they don't use them? As well as there children. JAMAMBTGE (talk) 21:44, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Precedence in Practice
[edit]I've been looking through the orders of service for Elizabeth II's funeral, then her committal, then her son's coronation, as well as Commonwealth Day in 2022 and 2023, specifically the part about processions. It looks as if de facto precedence differs a little from what we have here. Robin S. Taylor (talk) 15:31, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
Commonwealth Day 2022
[edit]Elizabeth II did not personally attend this. The Duke & Duchess of Gloucester were there but did not join the procession.
| Left column | Right column |
|---|---|
| Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall | Charles, Prince of Wales |
| Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge | William, Duke of Cambridge |
| Alexandra, Lady Ogilvy | |
Funeral
[edit]Louis of Wales is left out. Divorced Andrew walks unaccompanied. Birgitte, Duchess of Gloucester is also missing for some reason. The Princess Royal is placed ahead of the Countess of Wessex, even though formally the monarch's sisters by marriage outrank his sisters by blood. This even extends to putting Sir Tim ahead of Prince Edward, despite the former technically having no precedence at all!
| Left column | Right column |
|---|---|
| Queen Camilla | King Charles |
| Sir Tim Laurence | Anne, Princess Royal |
| Andrew, Duke of York | |
| Sophie, Countess of Wessex | Edward, Earl of Wessex |
| Catherine, Princess of Wales | William, Prince of Wales |
| Charlotte of Wales | George of Wales |
| Meghan, Duchess of Sussex | Harry, Duke of Sussex |
| David, Earl of Snowdon | Peter Philips |
| Richard, Duke of Gloucester | |
| Michael of Kent | Edward, Duke of Kent |
Committal
[edit]The committal has the same order as the funeral, save that George and Charlotte are omitted.
| Left column | Right column |
|---|---|
| Queen Camilla | King Charles |
| Sir Tim Laurence | Anne, Princess Royal |
| Andrew, Duke of York | |
| Sophie, Countess of Wessex | Edward, Earl of Wessex |
| Catherine, Princess of Wales | William, Prince of Wales |
| Meghan, Duchess of Sussex | Harry, Duke of Sussex |
| David, Earl of Snowdon | Peter Philips |
| Richard, Duke of Gloucester | |
| Michael of Kent | Edward, Duke of Kent |
Commonwealth Day 2023
[edit]This was a much smaller procession so fewer lessons can be learned from it, but those who were there generally followed the expected order.
| Left column | Right column |
|---|---|
| Queen Camilla | King Charles |
| Catherine, Princess of Wales | William, Prince of Wales |
| Sophie, Countess of Wessex | Edward, Earl of Wessex |
| Sir Tim Laurence | Anne, Princess Royal |
Coronation
[edit]The King & Queen each had their own elaborate entourages of pages and attendants (one of which was Prince George) so I've left them out of the table. Charlotte moves to the right column and Louis takes her place in the left. The King's heir apparent and grandchildren are above his collateral relatives as per the known order, but for some reason his niblings James and Louise are put ahead of his sister. The Duchess of Gloucester is back in this one, but York and the Sussexes are left out (understandable) as are the Kents, Phillipses and Snowdons (less so).
| Left column | Right column |
|---|---|
| Catherine, Princess of Wales | William, Prince of Wales |
| Louis of Wales | Charlotte of Wales |
| Sophie, Duchess of Edinburgh | Edward, Duke of Edinburgh |
| Louise Windsor | James, Earl of Wessex |
| Sir Tim Laurence | Anne, Princess Royal |
| Birgitte, Duchess of Gloucester | Richard, Duke of Gloucester |
Commonwealth Day 2024
[edit]The King and the Princess of Wales were both off work due to cancer, so here we have William in the left column and Camilla in the right. Sir Tim is absent here.
| Left column | Right column |
|---|---|
| William, Prince of Wales | Queen Camilla |
| Sophie, Duchess of Edinburgh | Edward, Duke of Edinburgh |
| Anne, Princess Royal | |
| Birgitte, Duchess of Gloucester | Richard, Duke of Gloucester |