Talk:Nene (bird)

DaKine (talk) 00:03, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Old

Nēnē is the correct usage of Hawaiian diacriticals, not Néné. What's the deal with the acute é. The obscure, unusable Néné title warrants a move of this page to Hawaiian goose, the more widely used term internationally with a redirect from nene, currently a disambiguation page. Gerald Farinas 20:20, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

moved to capitalised form as per Wikipedia convention for bird articles. All 1500 or so species articles are capitalised, so I wish people would check what they are doing before moving pages. also mover hadn't evenbothered to fix redirects. jimfbleak 04:56, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I think this page needs more information on the current project to breed these birds and release them into captivity. This species is often used as a case study on genetic diversity, and there is little information about this. Smashrgrl 8:10, 28 July 2005

Vulnerable

No wonder it is vulnerable if it is a sandwich goose :). It should be interesting to find here what measures, other than reintroduction, are locally taken to protect the species. Thank you. --DLL 21:31, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

(I was a volunteer at Haleakala in the 90s. Let's see what I can remember...) Mongooses, rats, and feral cats are predators that threaten the eggs and chicks of these (ground-nesting) birds. Some are struck by cars. The mortality rate among chicks is high -- I think poor nutrition was also a contributing factor. Generally, habitat loss is a problem. The nene's current range consists mostly of habitat that isn't great for raising chicks. Non-native plants have been replacing some of the nene's preferred foods (cheat grass comes to mind). So one measure is to control predator populations, especially around nesting sites. Another is to keep tourists from attracting birds out onto the roads (by feeding them). Apparently golf also threatens the nene, as they are attracted to golf courses and sometimes get hit by golf balls (not unlike hawks hanging around Tripp Isenhour I suppose). In one case (maybe 10 years ago, if I remember correctly), a tourist intentionally struck and killed a nene on a golf course with his golf club, so prosecuting this guy was yet another local measure that was taken :-) Quaternion (talk) 15:35, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Do they swim?

Do nēnē fish or move about on ponds, estuaries, and other still water? Or is their existence completely landbound? knoodelhed (talk) 18:57, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes. As far as I know, nene once had a very broad range and likely shared some of the wetland areas in the islands. I can't think of too many places these days where nene might have the chance to swim. The linked photo is taken at the Hakalau Forest National Wildlife Refuge on the big island. Nene have also been reintroduced along the Napali coast, where freshwater might pool. There are also a couple of tiny lakes at ~7000 elevation in the forest reserves on Haleakala, that I doubt nene visit. So unless they also swim at the Honolulu zoo or take up surfing the Napali breakers, those are the only places that I can think of where nene might swim. Quaternion (talk) 15:06, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I just came back from St James Park in London, England. I was lucky enough to witness these beautiful birds lightly swimming in the park pond. Rockin r0bin 1985 (talk) 19:12, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

"Rarest goose"

This is an often repeated claim. "Rarest" seems poorly defined, but is likely intended to convey that estimated nēnē numbers are lower than those for any other species of goose. The National Park Service webpage was the best reference I could find for this phrase. A google search (goose site:iucnredlist.org) of the red list backs up this claim -- all other listed species of goose do indeed have higher estimates for their population numbers. Nonetheless, I'm don't know how noteworthy the claim really is. For example, the subspecies Recherche Cape Barren Goose may be rarer. Likewise, many geese may be locally rare: the Lesser White-fronted Goose has extremely reduced numbers in Finland and Norway (Red List). And then of course there are the extinct species -- those are quite rare. Quaternion (talk) 17:33, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Gosling Appearance

The article makes these two claims: "the female Hawaiian Goose is similar to the male in colouration." and "Goslings resemble the male". Huh? Just how is it that the goslings resemble the male and not the female, if they look alike? If we claim that goslings resemble the male, we also need to describe the difference between the male and the female. (I don't see any differences, but I haven't looked closely.) And while we're on the subject, we might also want to reword this clumsy sentence: "Aside from being smaller, the female Hawaiian Goose is similar to the male in colouration." How about this: "The female Hawaiian Goose is similar to the male in colouration, but smaller." Or even this: "The female is similar to the male in colouration, but smaller." —MiguelMunoz (talk) 18:54, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 22:08, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Nene (bird) → Nēnē – or Hawaiian Goose. This page was renamed from Hawaiian Goose, following the IOC World Bird List, the usual standard for bird names. However, as pointed out at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Birds#Locked moves/Punctuation, the article should either be called Hawaian Goose or Nēnē. Hawaiian Goose is probably the more common name, but whether it's so, and much more common than Nēnē/Nene, enough to trump a standard name is another question. If the IOC name is to be used, we ought to use diacritics, since the name is after the Hawaiian, and is not an accurate term without the diacritics (the IOC List omits it and all other diacritics, but is neutral as to whether they should be used). For this reason, the name is widely used with the diacritics, especially in the sort of sources generally counted for article titles. —innotata 16:50, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Oppose: The IOC name, which Wikipedia has standardized on, is Nene (without diacritics). Not worth an edit war over, but our rule states we should follow IOC names when taxonomic data matches (which it does). Statements have been made on Wikiproject Birds about following IOC english naming rules unless there is a pressing reason not to. The IOC does allow for author discretion when using discritics. Since this is the English Wikipedia and not the Hawaiian one, I suggest using Nene without diacritics to keep consistent with IOC policy, otherwise how do you decide when or not when to use/keep them. Regarding changing the name back to Hawaiian Goose, other editors have gone back to IOC and had revisions made to the IOC list. The IOC has been accomodating when practical. I would suggest starting there, rather than here. Again, to me, not woth an edit war over, just trying to be consistent....Pvmoutside (talk) 14:49, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

The IOC's name really is Nene or Nēnē: see above and the bird project discussion. —innotata 15:56, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

OK, but please don't say your objection is that this isn't following the IOC: this is perfectly in line with the IOC's policy on diacritics. As pointed out at the bird project discussion page, the name from the Hawaiian is more accurate and very widely used in English with the diacritics. However, it is used largely since it is the Hawaiian word, and Hawaiian Goose is likely to be more common, maybe enough to trump standardisation. —innotata 17:23, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

I took a look at other taxonomic references regarding the name of this bird. Avibase is the only one that references Nene, and they do not use diacritics. In your defense, it appears everyone else with the exception of IOC (AOU, Clements, Howard and Moore, and Sibley and Monroe )references this bird as Hawaiian Goose. As Steve Pryor mentions below, we could wait for the HM update to be published, but I'm not sure how that resolves this. My suggestion is to keep this as Nene (bird), and someone contact the IOC to suggest changing their english name to Hawaiian Goose. Once it changes at the IOC, we can change it to whatever they go with (and hope they don't keep Nene!). By the way, the diacritic discussion is important because we have another bird, Chilöe Wigeon which could be moved to Chiloe Wigeon (wihout discritics). In that case, the IOC, Avibase, Birdlife International, Clements, Howard and Moore, and the South American classification committee of the AOU refrence the bird as Chiole Wigeon without diacritics. I'm sure there are other birds in Wikipedia with similar diacritic issues....Pvmoutside (talk) 18:03, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

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I moved the entire Wikiproject bird discussion to be centrallized below:

WT:BIRDS discussion

:Nene is a dab, so you can not move it there unless the goose is the primary topic. Looking at the dab, I doubt that the goose would be the primary topic. I have moved it to Nene (bird). Snowman (talk) 23:14, 10 August 2011 (UTC) The IOC says it omits diacritics, and doesn't give opinions as to whether they should be included. I haven't looked at this, but I'd expect Nēnē is better than Nene. —innotata 23:28, 10 August 2011 (UTC) @innonata. Disagree, MoS says use the common English form. So Nene I think. @Pvmoutside, several project members are admins, so you could post a move-over-redirect request here if you wished Jimfbleak - talk to me? 05:53, 11 August 2011 (UTC) Given the rather apparent tendancy of the IOC towards simplification, and given that what the IOC is now doing, Donsker et alia, in their continuing review of all of the subspecific taxa, and knowing from him that all of that work, including nailing down and reviewing all of the ranges for all taxa, will eventually be poured into the HM 4°Ed., well, it would be extremely surprising to me to find that the diacritics are not all elided in the text HM 4° Ed. In other words, the collaboration between the HM Editors and the IOC group is such that were the diacritics destined to show up in the upcoming HM, it would be logical to expect them to already be on the IOC list.Steve Pryor (talk) 05:55, 11 August 2011 (UTC) IOC says to use diacritics as one feels appropriate: "the committee is neutral as to the wishes of authors of regional works, who should feel free to add pronunciation marks that they consider to be appropriate for their intended audience." Note that diacritics are not the same as punctuation. Also note that "Hawaiian Goose" is the "'common' English form". The article should either be called Hawaian Goose or Nēnē. Nene is arguably not even an accurate term for this species. Natureguy1980 (talk) 15:32, 12 August 2011 (UTC) NG, here I actually agree with you. Everybody is waiting for a text tax work to be published, and I am sure that were that volume (the HM in this case) to include the diacritics, that the IOC would be fast in revising their common names in accordance. Unfortunately, we are still all in a taxonomic vacuum for the moment.Steve Pryor (talk) 16:58, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

OK, but the IOC's policy is that it doesn't express whether or not diacritics should be used. So, if we want to follow the IOC we can use Nene or Nēnē, and Natureguy and I have given why diacritics should be used then; and perhaps, as with a few articles, we should not use the IOC name and go for Hawaiian Goose (or ask the IOC about the name). What's your disagreement on the diacritics? How is Nēnē not in line with the IOC? Hope you don't mind my collapsing the quoted discussion for clarity. —innotata 19:06, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

I oppose using diacritics for a few reasons:

• in US English anyway, many if not all diacritics have been eliminated. I'm not sure of other English forms, but looking at the Wikipedia diacritic page, it appears other English forms are slowly losing their use.
• I suggest keeping consistent with IOC's choice of not using them at their site, Many other websites dealing with taxonomy, such as Birdlife International, Clements, Sibley and Monroe, Howard & Moore do not use them either.
• It would begin to give us better consistency across all articles of wikipedia, and would eliminate confusion. For example look at all the articles with Galapagos in them. Some use them, some don't. Even in within bird articles themselves, we are inconsistent (Galapagos Hawk (without), Galápagos Penguin (with). The main article for Galapagos Islands does not use the diacritic a. In a related vein, eliminating diacritic use by having a consistent rule would begin to eliminate confusion. How will anyone know when to keep or use a diacritic, or when to eliminate/not use them in an article.
• Since this is English Wikipedia and not some other languaged Wikipedia, we should follow English spelling rules and limit use of diacritics. We have other languaged Wikipedias, they can follow their own language rules.
• There are no diacritic keys on an American sold computer. Snowman puts up a good argument regarding the difficulty of adding diacritics to English words. As he states, many of these marks are difficult to type with an English keyboard. Pronunciation tips and the version of the species name with the foreign character could be provided at the head of the introduction in a very compact format.
• Wikipedia is trying to make it easier fo people to edit Wikipedia, not more difficult. Adding diacritics add an additional level of complexity.

I think those are all my issues with diacritics. My only argument for keeping diacritics is it may not be worth the trouble to change them, since people can usually figure out the article pretty easily with or without them. Then the only issue becomes being consistent (i.e. Galapagos).....Let me know what you think...Pvmoutside (talk) 12:17, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Some diacritics are used, especially for names from other languages, in English. This very much is a term from another language, used very largely since it is the native name so to speak, and is more accurate with the diacritics. There is a policy and guidelines that say diacritics at least sometimes should be used, and definitely we shouldn't try to eliminate them, and there certainly is no general consensus anything close to that sort. The two Galápagos pages were only just moved by Jimfbleak, in a move I disagree with in procedure, and lean toward supporting a revert of. I can't find Snowmanradio's argument; I think diacritics can be typed—using multiple keystrokes in a non-default language setting—on many if not most American and British computers. Perhaps we shouldn't use diacritics here, but should ease of editing trump accuracy and reflection of usage? The real issue is usage: what names are more widely used, and where. —innotata 15:57, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Diacritics are pointless as most English speakers have no particular idea how to use them beyond perhaps their use in one or two languages. They add nothing but complications for people typing them (yes it is possible to type them with multiple keystrokes, good luck finding someone who knows how to type all of them, or even a few of them, off the bat). English is a language that doesn't use them, and if we can render a word without them (names of people excepted) we should not use them. Sabine's Sunbird talk 19:47, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

That isn't exactly true (English does use diacritics, often though not always, for many words—e.g. café, naïve—as well as foreign names), and that's not the agreed-upon way to use diacritics on Wikipedia. This name is used because it is a native name, and probably Hawaiian Goose is more common. —innotata 21:19, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

English has shed their use in their own words and is working on doing it in the few common loanwords that use them. Take cafe, I live in a city with a cafe-culture and rarely see it rendered café. I don't think words have to be treated as native if they are adopted into English as the English name as well. Kea, Kaka, Kagu, Kiwi or Tui are all loanwords that have become the English name as well as the native name. Sabine's Sunbird talk 21:50, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Not everybody has shed diacritics for native English words. Most people? Possibly. As for the New Zealand birds: here, the word isn't the only term, and isn't used so predominately as for the New Zealand species. The version with the diacritics is very widely used, far more so than names like tūī, though it would be hard to determine which is more common. Add to that the reason the name is used, and that using diacritics is more accurate. It seems more and more, though that Hawaiian Goose is more common, and the best name. —innotata 22:11, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose:. I think that "ē" is practically never used in English and practically no one will know what it means , so I think that the page should be kept at "Nene (bird)". Snowman (talk) 08:09, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose MoS is that diacritics should only be used where it's the commonest English form, doesn't appear to be the case with the diacritical version here. There's a creeping tendency to deanglicise spellings, even with words like "Galapagos" where there is no doubt what the common English form is. Off to fix the penguin now. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 08:55, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:UCN, with the simple reason that 'Nene' is more commonly used than Nēnē. Peace. Yours faithfully, Kotakkasut. 13:20, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
  • I don't think this really will be resolved, unless someone can take a good look at the usage. It seems it would be rather hard to tell which of the names are more widely used; for what reason do you say Nene is? I thought I had listed some usages here earlier, but I guess I haven't. Here's some of what little I remember and can find now: all the first 20 or so guidebooks for birds found on Google Books give Hawaiian Goose as the main name, plus the sources above. A cursory look at books and a search on Google right now shows a good deal at least of usage of Nēnē, not necessarily enough for the name to be b clearly more prevalent, but widely. Nene almost entirely turns up pages about state birds on the internet, but Brittanica uses the name (though it often doesn't use the widely used or standard names for animals, this is a big plus, especially since the Enyclopædia is inclined toward diacritics). Government pages are pretty split, but Nēnē likely is the most widely used; many pages that do use Nene also use the wrong symbols for other Hawaiian diacritics. —innotata 20:40, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
• Here in England to most people "Nene" plain without diacritics first means the River Nene, a river in the east of England. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:08, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

• It is a river in England, but I think that it is not a particularly well known river. To an aircraft enthusiast "Nene" is a Royles Royce jet engine. Snowman (talk) 20:54, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

• Thanks Snowman, I was beginning to think I was an idiot, because I'd never heard of it before! Sabine's Sunbird talk 20:57, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

• The turbojet was named after the river. And not all that relevant to the name of the goose's page: I don't think anybody's questioned that if Nene is used here, it should be disambiguated as now, and nene remain a dab. If you want to mention other meanings, "nene" on Google turns up only the bird and Brazilian basketball player Nenê. —innotata 21:04, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

• In which case I presume that the initial comment about the river was to offer the opinion that the goose is not a primary page for "Nene". Snowman (talk) 21:43, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

• Comment. What I meant is, when referring to the bird, the name Nene is more commonly used in English without diacritics, so I think the page should stick to its current name, Nene (bird). Hope this helps because I am confused myself now. xD Yours faithfully, Kotakkasut. 05:58, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

• Evidence? Though I can't really provide anything to the contrary, as with a lot of cases, expect it'd be hard to determine which is more commonly used. —innotata 16:05, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Flightless goose?

Hello, I have a doubt: the article states that some Nene individuals are born without the ability to fly but, do that means Nene goslings that have such characteristic are flightless for their entire lifes or they develop the flying musculature some time later than commonly?

They are not as flightless as many think. One source says, "Alternatively, since their wings are 16% smaller than their closest relative, the Canada Geese, they are not the best fliers. However, they can fly from island to island, usually taking off from land." https://animaldiversity.org/accounts/Branta sandvicensis/ DaKine (talk) 00:20, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

Title

If the title “Nene” leads to a disambiguation page, why not just call the article a unique name “Hawaiian goose” per WP:TITLE? It seems the previous discussion from 2011 focused more on a name change to Nēnē which would not solve anything   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:29, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 27 October 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved (page mover nac) Flooded with them hundreds 16:30, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

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Nene (bird) → Hawaiian goose – Nene leads to a disambiguation page so rather than leaving this article as Nene (bird), why not just use the other common name?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  20:42, 27 October 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. Flooded with them hundreds 13:25, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support Rreagan007 (talk) 22:45, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support moving back to Hawaiian goose per common name. Randy Kryn (talk) 00:55, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose, this is the name used by the IOC. The term "Nene" being ambiguous is completely irrelevant; that alone does not justify moving an article to a different name. —Xezbeth (talk) 05:43, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Actually, per WP:NATURALDIS it does. 216.8.184.122 (talk) 14:04, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose, in part because Nene is the name used by the IOC, and in part because when referring to this bird virtually everyone who lives in Hawaiʻi says "Nēnē" and not "Hawaiian Goose". — Kiwikiu (talk) 06:14, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose: Nene is the term used by the IOC and is the more common name used for the species. LuckyBirdie (talk) 06:57, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support per WP:NATURAL – Regardless of the common name, natural disambiguation is preferable to parenthetical. No one uses the present title [Nene (bird)] to refer to the relevant bird (they call it 'Nene'), whereas at least some reliable sources use 'Hawaiian goose'. Scrap the parenthetical disambiguation per WP:NATURAL. RGloucester — ☎ 14:36, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose: Stepping back from the official name for a moment (although it is important), there is something else to consider. What does it sound like you are saying if you say Hawaiian Goose? It sounds more like a goose found in Hawaiʻi, rather than a specific breed of goose. After all, it is Canada Goose, not Canadian Goose. Scientists referring to this bird will know Nēnē (or Nene). When you are in Hawaiʻi, the National Park Service and all road signs use Nēnē, so a tourist wanting information on this bird will look for Nēnē or Nene. Since the Hawaiian name is the official name, there is no need to change. For those worried about using Nene (bird), I had no problem finding this article about the bird when I was on there, trying to find out more about it. Of course, I started my search in Google and not Wikipedia. An argument about on whether to use the Hawaiian language word or the English word is ironic on something called Wikipedia. Bob (talk) 05:34, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose per Kiwikiu, Xezbeth. Sabine's Sunbird talk 07:21, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose IOC vernacular names for birds offer a CONSISTENT scheme for article titles on Wikipedia. Current title is marginally more CONCISE. I don't really buy Bob's argument that Hawaiian Goose might refer to any goose found in Hawaii, but if that argument is accepted, the current title is more PRECISE. Hawaiian goose does avoid unNATURAL disambiguation. I believe this bird is more widely known, and better RECOGNIZEd as Nene than Hawaiian goose. The article title criteria favor the current title. Plantdrew (talk) 02:42, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.